GI5: 86 Cash Flowing Rental Properties in 12 Years with Bala Apparao

Welcome to the Global Investors Podcast, a show that focuses on helping foreign investors enter the lucrative US real estate market.
Host, Charles Carrillo, combined decades of real estate investing experience with a professional
background in international banking to interview experts in all areas of US real estate investing.
Now here’s your host, Charles Carrillo. Welcome to another episode of the Global Investors
Podcast. I’m your host, Charles Carrillo. Today we have Bala Apparao. Bala is a property investor
based out of Detroit. He currently owns 86 rental single family homes and the Commercial
Bank building that they have leased out to Comerica. These properties are all located
in Detroit in Atlanta. Bala originally in an Australian citizen from Sydney and has
been working in the banking and IT sector for 23 years before he retired in the full
time us property investing. So it’s, it’s quite the transition from going from IT to
real estate investing. What was the reasoning for doing that when you are living in Sydney? Okay, so the idea here, Charles, was basically
to be the first goal is to be financially free. You know, when I started working in
the banking and IT sector, I really enjoyed my job, but I enjoyed the domain, which is
the banking domain. But the most important thing was basically I, I soon realized, you
know, decision making and being productive meant that I really had to, you know, I wanted
to do, do things where I could take control of my decisions and rather than, you know,
spend the whole day, go to the whole day, in meetings and then, and then, you know,
when I finished the day and when I drive back and I look at all my things to do list, I
haven’t knocked off very much and, you know, the things to do list continues piling up.
And I just felt like, you know, I love the banking industry and, but the fact is that
your time doesn’t belong to you. And I wanted to take control of that and basically be a
master of my own destiny perhaps. And so I decided, while some going to be a nine to
five banker, I’d rather be a five to nine, which is, uh, a investor. And basically that’s
what got me started with property investing in 2007. That is when I purchased my first
property and I’m going from there. You know, it was, it was the idea was about, you know,
being positively, you know, being cashflow positive and being, you know, having a passive
residual income. That is the whole idea. It was all in Australia, correct. You have
a portfolio, you had a portfolio in Australia starting in 2007. And how was that? How did,
what was it made up of that? What kind of properties? Right. So my first property, in 2007, is when
I purchased my first property in Sydney, Australia. And then, you know, these properties as a,
you know, in Australia, the price of properties are way we, you know, way too expensive. And,
compared to the US market, you know, probably you can compare it to the LA market or New
York market, you know, that is the price of property in Sydney. So I was looking at the
first property I purchased was $585,000. And, then my second property was in Queensland
in a town called Moranbah, which is actually known for its coal mining. It was a mining
town, the cashflow was really good. It was pretty strong in terms of cashflow. And I
wrote the mining boom from 2007 to 2010, you know, in Australia we rent the properties
by the week, unlike in the US where we rent by the month. And there’s a good reason for
that actually. When you rent by the week, there’s actually 52 weeks, you know, which
makes it 13 months. So you’re technically getting one more month of rent into your bank
account in the US it’s 12 months. So, yeah, you know? Yeah, that’s great. And how did you, I know
one of the issues that kind of put a hold on your investing in Australia was financing
and you were working through a local bank that you had a relationship with and you had
finance these seven properties and what happened when you’re going for financing on your age? You know, so, so challenges is what, you know,
as, as we started, you know, accumulating, you know, after the first property, the second
property, Moranbah, which was actually a good cashflow property. The third one was in Sydney,
in a suburb called Oakhurst. And the fourth one was a unit brand new unit in a suburb
called Westmead. All of these properties were cashflow positive, but not by much. You know,
they would probably at the end of the month, you know, they would probably, you know, put
about a hundred dollars in your pocket, not much more, you know, and one small maintenance
here and there, you know, would bite about that particular cashflow, you know, because
the prices, the entry prices were pretty high. So, you know, and so I started looking at
regional Victoria and then again I bought my sixth property in Queensland. So slowly
accumulating properties. By 2010, I had accumulated 13 properties in Australia. And then I realized
at the end of the 13 property, I thought, WOW!! You know, 13 properties should really,
you know, it’s probably much more what an average investor would possibly, you know,
I’m going to. But in spite of 13 properties, I realized that I was actually one hitting
the ceiling or the glass ceiling of financing because you know, basically, you know, the
bands actually calculate for the scholar debt service ability coverage ratio that is basically,
they take the investors income and the income from properties they do a haircut of, they
take 80 percentage of the rents and then they look at, they look at interest rate scenarios
where if the interest rates increased by one or two percentage, whether the, you know,
whether the investor will be still be able to service that lending. And at which point
in time, after the 13 property, I hit that glass ceiling. And you know, I realized that
the banks were not willing to lend any more than that. And also looking at the cashflow,
probably about $1,500 per month in income from these properties, which is not really
very high. You know, by no way could I quit my day job. You know? And then that’s where
the realization came in that, you know, I had to seek other markets and you know, and
that’s where the US investing US market came into play. And, you know, so I saw these beautiful
properties in Atlanta in 2011, you know, which were $60,000, $65,000, which we’re renting
for a $1,000, $1050-100 a month. And doing the numbers and doing the math, it really
seemed like it was a great place to invest. And that’s when I started winding down my
Australian properties and taking cash and going into the, into the Atlanta market and
buying properties with cash. Because the idea was there were no bank lending in 2011 purely
because we were just off the global financial crisis and bank lending at t’s and you know,
that’s where these properties at once, prior to 2007, they had sold 180-190 thousand and
were available at 60, 65, 70 thousand dollars. You know, they were in the foreclosure market
and it was a distressed market, no lending, you know, and there was a lot of developers
who had built these beautiful new homes and couldn’t get, get them sold. And so that’s
where the opportunity presented itself. And… What did you choose Atlanta? Okay. Initially I went down to Chicago and
then, drove down to Indianapolis and then looked at Dayton, Ohio, Cincinnati, and you
know, but I found that the market is too depressed. Basically, it was back in 2011. It was way
too depressed and, things didn’t seem to, you know, things didn’t really seem to align
itself really, um, in, in, in that, in that area. So I decided, well, you know, it’s probably
not the best time to be looking at this market. So I flew back, when the second trip I took
down to was, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona and I looked at the market and Misa, again, a
great market, but, you know, we’re not, not really, you know, we were looking at properties
at the one 21/30k range, which were, and same brands about thousand thousand, thousand one
hundred, thousand two hundred and rents. But, so it was not really that, you know, from
a yield basis. It didn’t present itself as a phenomenal deal. They were great deals,
but you know, they present as, you know, the, the very best deals. Um, that’s when I went
down to Atlanta and fell in love with the place. You know, it was, it’ll just, it’ll
just been phenomenal in terms of, you know, when I looked at Henry County, the Clayton
and the Newton County, which is the south of Atlanta, looked at these properties, they
were a lot of newer, they were newer properties, lesser maintenance, tenant pool was, was a
better, stronger tenant pool that were, uh, that was available in Atlanta. And that’s
why I said down. Interesting. Now you guys have really transitioned
to the Detroit. What was, what was the reasoning behind that? Because the traits kind of an
area where you hear a lot of people leaving from investing and going down to the Southeast,
Midwest, Southwest in regards to like you’re saying, Arizona. Yeah. In fact, on the contrary, you know,
since 2014, detroit has been, has been the market where investors are going and seeking
cashflow and capital growth because, Detroit as a market. So, you know, basically, you
know, how, you know, Detroit as a market itself, you know, quite depressed and, during the
global financial crisis, all markets like Atlanta, Detroit, Florida, or Las Vegas for
instance, all these markets can came down crashing, you know, from a price index of
say, pre 2007. If the price index was say, $100, 100, you know, by 2011, Atlanta and
Detroit had come down to 40, 40, 40 cents to a dollar and by 2014, Atlanta started recovering,
you know, blending had come in and Atlanta started recovery, but Detroit had the double
whammy where the, you know, Detroit as a city filed for bankruptcy. So again, Detroit market,
when further south and sideways, it was, you know, it started from 2014, 15, 16. It was
going rather sideways, but a lot of the investments were coming and people could see there’s this,
you know, the city had a lot of opportunities in terms of great investments. Prices in Detroit
Properties were selling for 120 in 2007. We are selling for 30/35,000 and even lesser,
you know. So yeah, so it, it presented a great opportunity and the idea is about all about
location, location, location. So it’s all about buying in good locations, good properties,
you know, of course, you know, every now and then you can hear a properties being sold
for a $1000, $2,000, you know, for instance, but then all quit claim deeds, they’re not
warranty deeds. And, these properties come with say $10/15,000 in back taxes, which you
have to care after purchase. And these properties would come with another $15/20,000 worth of
Rehab. And, they, they, they were not sitting in, in the, in the best of locations. So the
idea is in Detroit it’s all about block to block. And it’s about the best of locations.
If you buy a well in the best of locations, you know, the cashflow and capital growth,
it offers tremendous potential. If it goes block by block, how is it a, how
did you build your team in Detroit on the ground there? Because obviously you’re not
managing them day to day or anything like this. So how did you design your team, find
the properties, the brokers to financing managers, etc. So the idea was like, I’m in, I’m 14. I went
down there, you know, and literally the, for the first three months just grow every block
and basically, you know, the Detroit has, the city has the east side and has the west
side. And basically driving different blocks and different suburbs. You know, you knew
what were the areas that were, that had the pride of ownership. You can actually drive,
drive couple blocks and see, you know, very good areas. And then, you know, you know,
you drive for five blocks for the south, the further north are probably 10 blocks. And
then you see bad neighborhoods, you know. So what I started doing was giving every block
a location rating from a rating scale of one to 10 where the 10 was being the best one
being the worst. So I decided that I was going to be buying five and above. I’m not going
to be buying below five. So I totally avoided one, twos and threes absolutely awarded these
one twos and threes. But locations four, I might be very selective and very careful in
buying location four but five is where I started buying, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten
are my areas like say for instance, it back in 2014 and you know, locations like Sherwood
forest, Palmer Woods University district, Valerie’s, you know, aviation sub district,
East English village, Bug Lasher, Greenwich, you know, areas like this Grandmont Rosedale,
Rosedale Park, not Rosedale Park. And these were the kind of areas that can have popped
up as good locations where you can, you can buy a great property, for in the, in the 30s
and forties. You could buy a great property and you could get a great tenant who was suicidal
because bad areas attract bad tenants, but areas attract good tenants. You know, it’s
simple, you know? So, that’s why we hear a lot of horror stories from interstate and
international investors and even Detroit investors going into a bad, a bad area and finding that,
you know, it is, the price is so cheap. I can buy, buy, say five properties and then
they’ve, they’ve bought in the wrong location and then they are not able to get the good
tenants and then they have to evict these tenants or you know, stuff like that. You
know, it’s a constant. It is, it is a constant struggle when it comes to, because to be a
landlord in Detroit really takes, takes a lot of, it requires the mindset of being a
business person and other, just as a passive investor. Right. Interesting. So you have your own management
staff that handles all the day to day and your properties in Detroit. And I know that’s
part of your business too, because when you’re providing and selling turnkey properties,
it’s something that I’m obviously, they’re gonna want when you, when they walk in, they
want everything kind of all set for them. So how does your team work with, with managing
the properties you have, what kind of systems do you guys have in place to do that? Yeah, so what we first did was, we found a
great broker to work with. And then, we started a building, a team around the property management
side. We run our property management in house. So, technically speaking, I realized that,
you know, to be effective, you know, we have a part to have a process in place, you know,
we had to have property management in house and technically speaking, for instance, if
a tenant is, new for the rent on the, on the first of the month and by the second if the
rent has not hit your account, you know, you need someone out there sending out texts,
emails and phone making phone calls on the second. And if they’ve not responded by the
third, we will then go and don’t knock on the, on the third or the fourth. We, there
will be someone from our property management team who will actually be on the front of
the door and the pro and find out what type thing, you know, is there any issues are something
that needs to, you know, you need, what is the reason for late payment? And if there
is, you know, and basically if it was working, if there isn’t a term that, you know, tenants
work a shift in the parking lot. So technically if the tenants not there, someone leaves,
leaves a note, a handwritten note, not a printed note, but a handwritten note. So that’s by
the fifth and by the seventh, you know, if you still not heard anything, a letter from
the lawyers office, you know, wouldn’t go in. And technically this is the process in
which of engaging a tenant and basically, you know, because [inaudible] tenants are
just like any other tenants anywhere else in the world, you know, you know, tenants
want to be staying in that house, they’ve got their going to the school, they want to
be in that particular community and that’s why they’re renting them. But as a landlord,
we have a lot of duty of care as well, you know, in terms of making sure that the properties
is a safe and healthy. And you know, the tenants have a functioning home, you know, and yeah,
so, so yes. You know, so there’s many equations to this. So having the stakeholders, identifying
good stakeholders to work part of our team and getting good maintenance crew on board
and having a process in terms of who’s going to be at which time to which house and ensuring
that the tenants are taken care of and the properties you know, and ensuring that the
rent roll and the, and the rents keep rolling it. That’s the whole process. Yeah, that’s a great system that you have
and it’s great that you don’t leave that much time. I think that’s one of the mistakes that
a lot of landlords do up front is they’re too nice or too laid back. And that’s your
biggest mistake. You have to make sure that you’re proactive. You have to make sure that
you’re talking to those tenants, you’re collecting rent, you know, they know that you’re going
to show up there. And of course they know that they know your other tenants and they
say, well, this is what happened on the second they came to my door. And, you know, I get
a letter on the fifth and it kind of puts the word out there that hey, this is kind
of how this business works and this is how they run. So yeah. What’s the difference use
you see before between investing in the United States versus Australia? Just what would you
see some, other than the cashflow, it’s more of an appreciation market versus a cashflow
market. Like we’d see major cities here in the United States and North America, like
Toronto and stuff. What else would you see as a difference? Well, technically speaking, exactly there
isn’t much of a difference between the US market and Australian market. The biggest
thing is you have five outgoings and that’s the same across Australia and the, and the,
and the US you know, it’s exactly the same things in terms of say property tax, which
we call as council rates in Australia. You know, in Australia it’s called concentrates.
And then you have your insurance, same thing. You have your maintenance, you have your vacancy,
you have your interest rates, you know exactly the very same structure you know, from your
pie chart or what are your deductions. But one big major aspect is if you’re investing
in high yield cities in the US there is a lot in terms of difference, in terms of cashflow
in compared to Australia, in Australia, you know, landlords are willing to make a loss,
you know, technically speaking, it’s called negative cashflow and negative gearing and
negative gearing is great because you know, the supposed to rent Hubbard is only going
to be, so suppose the rent is say $1,000 a month, right? interests and other expenses
and, you know, maintenance and stuff like that. You know, it could be $1,150, $1,200
for the month. So technically the investor is taking money, $200 out of his pocket just
to every month and holding the property. The only betting on a bigger cash flow in terms
of capital growth you know, at the end of the year. Yeah. So they’re just for appreciation and
they don’t mind having to kind of finance it through and interest. Subsidize the tenant and subsidize the tenant.
Whereas, you know, American landlords are much more capitalistic, you know, they much
more, you know, they’re not going to subsidize the tenant. No. Sorry. You know, they have
to be a landlord. You need to be, it’s a, it’s a good rule here to say that, hey, I’m
up to be a landlord. I need to be paid. What now since you work with your turnkey
company and you have, you’re very well versed in international real estate in international
business. Well, what do you see the main differences between or biggest mistakes that new investors
make when investing in the US integral state? Right. The biggest mistake is, one is not
finding, not going in for the right location, B) Not getting into the, you know, location
is key. Absolutely. The key item here, not working with the right location, not having
the right processes in place and working with the wrong property management team and in
technically speaking, working with the wrong, you know, you’re an interstate or an international
investor, the most important thing that you need to understand, like you need to have
your boots on the ground, you know, your eyes, your pair of eyes on the ground. So that comes
in from you know, aligning with a team that aligns with your goals and basically aligns
with what’s, what’s good in property management, how best do we handle a particular maintenance,
you know, how best, you know, not by, you know, if a hot water tank blows up and not
simply going and getting a $2,000 hot prototype, the cashflow is gone. So technically in a
market like Detroit, you, you basically, you know, there’s a huge second market for hot
water tanks and so you know, technically utilize, you know, by in the hardcore secondhand, you
know, you get the same thing fixed for $400 rather than paying $2,000 you know. So these
are the ways that you align yourself with the team who aligns with your ideas to basically
understand your goals of being cashflow positive, you know, and also having the capital growth
at the end of the year. Yeah. The management, the management on any
type of property with when you’re renting it out. I mean it’s just so key to making
that property work or not work. I mean, it can be, it’s, it’s amazing that, and they
have to be well versed in the property asset type, the neighborhood. They have to know
everything about it because you take my management company that manages in Detroit and does,
you know, A class properties and you’ll need to, if you’re buying C class properties you
need someone that manages and specializes in C class or I mean it’s just not gonna work.
There’s no way it’s going to work. Exactly. absolutely So what about, tell us about your company
cashflow positive. You guys are a turnkey provider. You, it’s an, it’s a way for international
investors to get into receiving passive income from US real estate without knowing the ins
and outs or building the team cause you already have that in place. Yeah. So challenge to, basically what happened
was, when I started building my team and I started to picking on good people on board,
on my payroll, you know, I soon realized that this was, a great niche. A lot of investors
come in and they can, they can, you know, leverage off the market purely because they
have got, you know, in Detroit you can make great cashflow, you know, so the idea is like,
but what I found was, not a lot of investors services funds and that’s where I decided
to create this run called And with cashflowpositive, we are a 12 member
team and what we do is basically we do a complete location due diligence. We identify distressed
and under market undervalued properties from we work with, with the tax options. We work
in the bank foreclosure market, we work direct with the seller and we identify and we kind
of bring in great properties at 70 cents, 65 cents a dollar. You know, that’s the kind
of, that’s what a, you know, because it’s all cash transactions. So we’re not going
in for any land it’s all cash transactions. So you have a huge cash market in Detroit.
So where a seller is distress and he wants to sell this like yesterday, you know, he
should have sold it like history. So, you know, he kinda allowed, we can’t wait for
a buyer to walk in and go through a house and then decide that he they’re going for
an FHA or a VA loan. You know, it’s not possible. He needs the property. So that’s where the
cash market was and that’s where we are working. And we have a team of 12 people on our team
and who undertake everything from rehab to location due diligence, you know, we do the
title, we do a title verification. We work with, you know, basically in terms of, in
a inspection teams to inspect the property. We, we do an entire, you know, full pre-purchase
due diligence. Plus if the property is already tenanted. We also do the do the due diligence
on the tenant to ensure that they are actually, you know, are, are we look at the employment
history, the criminal record, the court corporate cards and you know, ensure that the tenant
is going to be a good tenant for you. You know, there’s a good alignment between the
landlord and the tenants. So, so yes. Is there a financing available for a, do you
have any financing, financing options available even for international investors? Yes, yes we do. We work with a number of hedge
funds at the moment. The financing criteria for international investors are that, A- you
know, uh, basically the property minimum property value should be at least 50,000 and the second
is minimum loan value should be 150, so they would have to have at least three properties
to bring in into the portfolio to be able to lend on it. And the rates start at six,
six and a half percent is, that’s whether it’s currently sitting at moment six to six
and a half percentage. And it’s fairly asset based lending. It does not take into any criteria
of the borrower or borrowers, you know, nothing. It’s asset based land. There’s no, there’s
no requirement for credit. There’s no requirement for anything except it’s only I said baseline
and the land is between 65 and 75% LTV or loan to value ratios. The lower the LTV, the,
the lower the interest rates, obviously and high, the LTV high, the interest rates, because
there’s a higher risk premium that, that the hedge funds charge. But they’re all cash are
loans only. They are not for prepurchase technically speaking, a investor, should I purchase a
property before they apply for these loans because they wouldn’t be prepurchase their
cash out refinance on me. That’s great. Well they are also getting the
property already. It’s already running. They’re just cashing that out to go to another property
or to reinvest that somewhere else. When they’re in the property, so you’re buying them wholesale,
you’re, you go through and you’re doing everything. You’re renovating the property, it’s all set.
You’re putting a tenant in place and it gets sold. What are people, what are you seeing
for a price versus rent ratio? kind of if you say you buy a property or you’re selling
a property for 75,000, let’s say, or whatever, what are they renting that for normally? Okay. So if you, if you technically see what’s
happening in the Detroit has been one of the markets, it just, the last year it has had
the highest rent increases nationwide. So it shows what a market, how strong the market
is and it’s, it’s pretty interesting. A two bedroom apartments would be renting anywhere.
600 to 650, 3 bedrooms would be 750 to 800 to 850, 4 bedrooms, two baths would be 900,
950, 1000, 1100, even 1200, depends on the location. And say for instance, you could
technically buy a three bedroom, one and a half property for say 45-50,000. And basically
once you’ve done a rehab and rehab and so forth, you can get that property because you’re
buying under market in the first place. Wholesale, you’re buying it when, when you look at the
comps, that property could actually get a comp of about 65 to 70, 75 after, after the
Rehab. So that’s where the market is at the moment, you know, and, the valuations difference
between, you know, from a property cycle perspective, you know, how, you know, six, six o’clock,
you know, is absolutely the bottom, you know, and then it starts rising, goes to seven,
eight, nine, ten, eleven, twevle. You know, and right now we try to potentially be in
the seven o’clock mark, you know, in a, in a property cycle perspective. And, and that’s
where, that’s where, you know, it makes it all the more exciting about being invested
in Detroit and, and waiting for the capital growth and the returns and yields, you know,
rent returns and years, so, so, yeah. Interesting. That’s great. Do you have one
investors come in? Are they usually buying one? They start off with one or they buy a
couple at a time or how are they doing that just to, are they, are they going to minimize
some sort of management fee or kind of some scale of economies of scale on their end? Right. So mostly what we do see is especially
international investors when they come and they would like to buy one or two and then
they would like to dip their toe, see how it goes, and then soon they get excited about
the opportunity after say, you know, after they see everything is actually settled down
in rents are coming in, you know, they’ve got a good team that they’re working with
and then soon the, the escalating go ahead and buy eight, nine, ten properties because,
because these price points are extremely low, you know, and where else in the world can
you take, where else in the entire wide wide world? can you buy a property for $40,000
as a single family home? Absolutely. Absolutely impossible. So that’s where, you know, that’s
why Detroit all presents the, this opportunity. And it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity
because these properties, so for one grantee to one 30 pre pre GFC crash and the amount
of investments coming into the credit at the moment, you know, today you have the Detroit
as we all know, you know, was a car manufacturing hub. But today it’s not just about, and today
it’s coming back in a huge way because it’s no longer about, you know, as we saw car manufacturing,
moved from America, went down, moved from Detroit, went to Japan in the 80s, late 70s,
80s and 90s, and then went to Korea in the 90s and 2000 and then went to India and China
and then Mexico. So, and now we’re seeing the entire car manufacturing, not just car
manufacturing, but we are seeing the entire industry moved back purely because there is
no longer a price, you know, there is no longer a price differential whether the car manufacturing
is in China or whether it is in the US because it’s all about robotics today. It’s no longer,
you know, huge. And it’s all about machine learning, artificial intelligence, driverless
technologies. You know, and today it’s all about hybrid and fuel cell technologies. And
you know, we had the Teslas of the world. So a car is no longer about the motorized
spot. It’s all about the software and the technology and where else in the world, you
know, except US, where the technology is, is so strong, the software and the hardware
side. So it’s a, it’s a great combination. And so, you know, you know, so today we are
seeing a lot of investments come into Detroit. You know, recently a jeep plant announced
the $4.2 billion plant in Detroit, east side, $4.2 billion, which is huge, which is huge.
I mean, and Chrysler and FIAT, you know what I mean! General Motors and I recently saw
Google has introduced a way more, which is actually a driverless technology. Google’s
getting into driverless technology, you know, autonomous, autonomous cars and so forth.
So, so yes, you know, exciting times. Yeah, that’s great. So how can the listeners
learn more about you and cashflowpositive Right? so we buy great properties and we buy
great domain names as well. So It’s just one word. It’s positive
And once you’re on the site, this, you know, you, if you leave me a message, if you subscribe
and if you would like to leave me a message, let’s, let’s connect over a call, let’s discuss
the possibilities and let’s make it happen. Well that’s awesome. And what I’ll do here
is that everything will be put into the note section and so you can have is you’ll have
Bella’s email and website address and everything. So I want appreciate, thank you very much
for coming onto the show and hopefully you know everything with Detroit, in increases
and builds on what you’ve already got going on there. So that’s great. So thank you very
much and have a great rest of your day. Thank you for listening to the Global Investors
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